Finecast can **** my ****!!!

[LUTNIT]

For all the complaining about finecast pewter still had its issues, as Tokken demonstrated. At least with finecast the paint doesn't scratch off and the model does not break and need excessive pinning like metal ones did........so there is that to say in finecast's favor.

The thing is pewter issues where few and far between compared to finecast issues. The percentage of finecast models with issues, at least according to internet reports, seems to be orders of magnitude higher than pewter. I've been playing since 1995 and have bought several hundred blisters in that time at least. I have only twice had issues with casting of pewter models. Little things like bent swords is an easy fix so I don't see that as a drawback of pewter (especially since more finecast items seem to be bent or warped.) I am downright afraid to buy any finecast models and I pretty much refuse to until these stories stop coming out so often. On the major forums there are threads dozens of pages long of peoples reports of issues with finecast models and at least one big online retailer rejected their first shipment of finecast models refusing to sell such substandard items.

As for paint scratching all you need to do is clean the models and use a good primer (not the GW crap they call primers.) I use mostly Krylon products for priming and overcoating and have had zero issues with my pewter models since I switched over. I hardly consider one pin per joint to be "excessive" pinning and would much rather have to do that than deal with the finecast issues. Using a high quality super glue instead of the watered down crap GW sells also helps loads. I have zero pins in my guard ogryns and they have survived accidental drops from 12" onto a hard wood table with no breaking or paint chipping. I have also started to use 5min epoxy (again, quality modeling stuff, not Home Depot garbage) on some pewter models and I can't break the models apart when trying. Both my epoxy's and super glues (various thicknesses) are made by Bob Smith Industries.

[Orbital]

I wanna put a few things out there for consideration. This is not an endorsement of Finecast but, rather, an analytical look at data-gathering.

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data". When someone says "I've NEVER/ALWAYS had problems with Finecast", that's next to worthless. Why? Because it's one person's experience out of thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of customers. I see a lot of "I bought X number of Finecast/Pewter and I have had [whatever] experience" intended as supporting evidence to claims that all Finecast/Pewter is a certain way. We need to remember that even if every single person in Ottawa who bought a Finecast model had a bad experience, we're looking at a sliver of a fraction of a speck of the entire consumer experience. What's more, when someone says "this product is always a certain way", there's personal bias, exaggeration, misinterpretation, lack of consensus on what "acceptable/unacceptable" flaws are, etc. In statistical terms, the sample size is too small and the methodology is weak at best.

As for the internet, again you have confirmation bias as well as a skewed sample. Have a thousand people stepped forward to say "Finecast is crap"? Seems like a lot until you actually do proper statistical analysis, which requires you to ask "How many people aren't speaking up? And how many people who aren't speaking up will say the product is bad/good?" It's easy to guess what those numbers would be like (and maybe tempting to make an argument that confirms a certain bias) but, from a statistical analysis viewpoint, a guess is useless. Weaker still is how internet data-gathering by the user is conducted. You say the internet consensus is X? What's your study sample? Did you just visit your favorite forums and click "FINECAST SUCKS/ROCKS" threads? Or did you actually conduct a systematic study of a wide range of sites and all related forums? If you didn't do the latter, your data's pretty much useless.

Again, this isn't to say that Finecast is or isn't a good product. I'm simply a fan of strong logic and good arguments. So far the arguments I've heard that say most people have bad experiences with Finecast are built upon faulty logic and confirmation bias. I'm not saying that to ruffle anyone's feathers, but proliferating anecdotal evidence as fact doesn't make a generalization true.

[WuZhuiQiu]

Those are all excellent points, Orbital101, especially when it comes to trying to estimate the rate of "finecast" defects in a cross-sectional way from self-selected samples with inconsistent methods and measures!

However, and with many of the same cautions that you suggest, individuals' observations of "finecast" vs. pewter defects in their purchase histories might at least be suggestive of the relative rates of "finecast" vs. pewter defects, e.g. 1:1, 2:1, or some other factor.

For example, suppose that Tim Gamer had purchased some 50+ pewter models over the past few years, and remembers (correctly?) two "defects". Tim Gamer has also purchased 15 "finecast" models (without checking them at the store), and found five similarly serious "defects". The "finecast" spell is shorter and yields a smaller sample, but it would seem that the Tim Gamer longitudinal sample suggests a 1 in 25 rate for pewter and a 1 in 3 rate for "finecast", so an approximate 10:1 relative rate. Of course, this also ignores any time-related effects.

[Orbital]

For example, suppose that Tim Gamer had purchased some 50+ pewter models over the past few years, and remembers (correctly?) two "defects". Tim Gamer has also purchased 15 "finecast" models (without checking them at the store), and found five similarly serious "defects". The "finecast" spell is shorter and yields a smaller sample, but it would seem that the Tim Gamer longitudinal sample suggests a 1 in 25 rate for pewter and a 1 in 3 rate for "finecast", so an approximate 10:1 relative rate. Of course, this also ignores any time-related effects.

I don't personally know anyone who has bought 15 Finecast blisters/boxes yet, but let's say 75,000 have been sold worldwide (that's a conservative guess). Tim Gamer represents a 0.02% study sample. Unless you're talking about tens of millions, that sample is extremely small.

Aside from that, to suggest that one random guy can be free of bias is pretty much impossible. That's why we need large samples. Tim didn't even buy the same number of Finecast models as he did Pewter, so you can't compare them.

Again, I'm not saying Finecast is or isn't a good product (or even how good or bad it is). I'm simply saying I haven't seen enough data to make a generalization. Lots of anecdotes and lots of anger and that sort of thing. Not enough measurable fact.

[Diragi]

I don't personally know anyone who has bought 15 Finecast blisters/boxes yet, but let's say 75,000 have been sold worldwide (that's a conservative guess). Tim Gamer represents a 0.02% study sample. Unless you're talking about tens of millions, that sample is extremely small.

Aside from that, to suggest that one random guy can be free of bias is pretty much impossible. That's why we need large samples. Tim didn't even buy the same number of Finecast models as he did Pewter, so you can't compare them.

Again, I'm not saying Finecast is or isn't a good product (or even how good or bad it is). I'm simply saying I haven't seen enough data to make a generalization. Lots of anecdotes and lots of anger and that sort of thing. Not enough measurable fact.

If you want to make broad internet generalizations (ie: a confidence level of 90% (certainty) and a confidence interval of 10 (margin of error)) then you'd only need 68 independent samples. Almost getting into the range of what Wayland ordered at the start. The main issue in that case was that the samples wouldn't have been randomly determined.

[Gahris]

Wayland games took a sample of blisters. I know they are one of the bigger online retailers. They went through a delivery and sound alot of defective blisters. Its the only data that I've seen collected with some merit. For awhile they stopped selling finecast. Due to customer request they started selling finecast again, but they do not most returns for finecast now. They also put up a warning they finecast needs alot of work and time and is for experienced modelers.

From Wayland Games website:

We regret that we are not presently retailing the Citadel Finecast range.

Unfortunately, a randomly sampled assessment revealed what we feel to be an excessive level of actual and potential flaws that, if reflected across our entire stock of Finecast, could have resulted in unacceptable inconvenience to our customers. Although we will be returning our present stockholding to the manufacturer, please be assured that we remain committed to carrying the Finecast line and will be restocking in due course.

For your information, we sampled and then assessed 60 sealed blisters with 30 taken at random from each of two deliveries of stock. Failures were 17 (57%) of 30 and 16 (53%) of 30, making 33 (55%) of 60 in total. While failure doesn’t necessarily denote the blister content as being of less than merchantable quality, for our purposes it does categorise it as having a visible flaw that might be of sufficient concern to a customer such that the item might be returned. Details and images were provided to the manufacturer, with redacted copies of the images appearing below.


Personally I went to Fandom 2 a few days after finecast came out, and I wanted a space marine librarian. All blisters had similar defects and I decided to pass. The internet gaming community is about 50/50 on finecast. Half of them are in love with the lightweight, plastic like and chip/break resistant material. The other half are displeased due to the excessive cleanup required and the defect rate. I'm with the displeased crowd since I have 0 skill in using any sort of putty to conduct repairs. What I generally do is make the defect area battle damage. Unfortunately having a 1/4in hole in the face, missing hands or half the weapon gone can't be turned into battle damage.

[Diragi]

Wayland games took a sample of blisters. I know they are one of the bigger online retailers. They went through a delivery and sound alot of defective blisters. Its the only data that I've seen collected with some merit. For awhile they stopped selling finecast. Due to customer request they started selling finecast again, but they do not most returns for finecast now. They also put up a warning they finecast needs alot of work and time and is for experienced modelers.

No, Wayland ordered a bunch of blisters in two bulk orders. This is not random as they would have all been manufactured at roughly the same time (and likely within the same production lots).

Also if I recall they ordered a bunch of a few models rather than sampling the whole range but not 100% certain of that.

[Orbital]

The internet gaming community is about 50/50 on finecast.

Where'd you get "50/50" from?

[Gahris]

The internet gaming community is about 50/50 on finecast.

Where'd you get "50/50" from?

I spend about 6-8 hours a day during the week reading forums, blogs, etc. Most of this is on wargaming/miniature sites. That is basically all I do at work alot of the time. I did say about 50/50, it could be closer to 40/60 one way or the other (or it could be 47.3/52.7), but either way the community is very divided on finecast. I'm not going to go back, and re-read hundreds of hours of posts in blogs/forums just to make a must closer estimate. By no way to I make my statement fact, as the first thing I said in my post was "Personally"

edit - Actually, even gamesummit seems about 50/50 divided on finecast lol

Wayland games took a sample of blisters. I know they are one of the bigger online retailers. They went through a delivery and sound alot of defective blisters. Its the only data that I've seen collected with some merit. For awhile they stopped selling finecast. Due to customer request they started selling finecast again, but they do not most returns for finecast now. They also put up a warning they finecast needs alot of work and time and is for experienced modelers.

No, Wayland ordered a bunch of blisters in two bulk orders. This is not random as they would have all been manufactured at roughly the same time (and likely within the same production lots).

Also if I recall they ordered a bunch of a few models rather than sampling the whole range but not 100% certain of that.

Hmm, I didn't state it was a random search actually. All I stated is Wayland games went through a delivery of blisters. I don't know how anything I stated is incorrect, as the information I posted came directly from the Wayland games weekly email and their website.

The response I made was more for Orbital101 as he stated there isn't enough data on the subject. Wayland games pretty much are the only ones that I've seen attempt such data, even if it was bias and from the same delivery.


Either way: People are either going to dislike change or like change. The wargaming community has always been divided like this. I honestly assume that most finecast "fails" are due to early production problems, and that only GW would know a more accurate fail rate.

[Matt Varnish]

Thats the beauty about stats and numbers. Numbers can lie. For example, in Gahris' example, he states 50/50, but of course this isnt a true number, because more ppl will post to complain, whereas not as many will post to say "Yeah everything was fine"

And about personal experiences. I'll use me for example and Game Summit. Everytime (3 times) I have registered for an event, something has mucked up. Either I'm an idiot and can;t recall what login I made up the first time at the event, as I had to register to pay at the door (1st time) or I couldn't remember my login (2nd time) and had trouble getting a new password, or I can't even get a new acct registered now from work (3rd attempt), from my point of view, no matter who was at fault here (2 out of 3 its me) I can then go online and say "Game Summit sucks, all 3 times I can't register" Does this mean everyone has the same experience? Probably not, given I seem to be the only one cursed!

its the same thign with Finecast or w/e the cool kids way to call it is, FailCost, or wtf. Does it have problems? Sure. Does J Oblivions situation sucks? Sure. i ve had the same thing happen with metal though (my metal hive tyrant having 2 sets of right legs comes to mind, return, open new one, that one also had 2 right legs, open third one, also has 2 sets of r. legs, clearly a batch issue)

Does GW stores offer to right away swap for a good one ? So far yes. So regardless of if it was a good idea for GW to claim its the best, at least they know about it (as I imagine they arent keen on writing off all this product, as a former mgr I feel their pain) and are doing what they can to at least make sure customer walks out with a decent one in hand.

I hate to be the one standing up for GW here, but in this case, while there IS a problem, I'm sure its going to be addressed at the factory level and in the meantime, ppl who have crappy sculpts, return them until you get a good one. Its not like the GW bean counters to just write off all that FC product in perpetuity right?

As an aside, of COURSE Finecast Hive Guard come out just AFTER I buy 9 of the metal ones (worst model ever to put together btw) Thanks GW