Question about poison weapons.

[Berserker]

I got into a argument with someone about tyranid using poison attacks about always needing a 4+ regardless of strength so a trygon with Strength 6 still needed 4+ to wound a model with a toughness of 4.


I showed the codex entry to the other person which referred to look in the big rule book( of course) and the big rule book essentially says poison attack are attack that will always wound on a 2+, 3+ and 4+.


Now since the nid 'dex doesn't specific exactly what is the required number my understanding of the rule is that a poison weapon is a weapon that will never need to roll worst then a 4+ for wounding purpose.


The other person kept on arguing and to me that's my number 1 game turn off so I just packed up my stuff and politely told him I was not longer interested in playing with him( I really did which is saying a lot as I usually let my impulsive nature get the best of me so that's a personal proud moment for me )


Anyways I done some extra research once I got home with my other dex's and the only codex that specifies a actualy number are all the ones that predates the current rule book so again my opinion of no worst then a 4+ stands.

Am I right?

[natesnation]

Poisoned weapons cause wounds on the number specified in the weapon's entry (4+ if not specified, as per the rules).
The trygon, if it had a poisoned weapon, would be wounding on 4+, as specified in the toxin sacs bit of the nid codex.
The bright side of that situation for the trygon is that he gets to re-roll to wound.

[Berserker]

Poisoned weapons cause wounds on the number specified in the weapon's entry (4+ if not specified, as per the rules).
The trygon, if it had a poisoned weapon, would be wounding on 4+, as specified in the toxin sacs bit of the nid codex.
The bright side of that situation for the trygon is that he gets to re-roll to wound.

That's the problem Nates the toxin sac entrie just says to look at the rule in the BRB and the way the BRB words it it pretty much says a poison wont wound on anything worst then a 4+.

Your basicly saying what the othe guy was arguing and I personally think he's wrong.

[natesnation]

Poisoned weapons cause wounds on the number specified in the weapon's entry (4+ if not specified, as per the rules).
The trygon, if it had a poisoned weapon, would be wounding on 4+, as specified in the toxin sacs bit of the nid codex.
The bright side of that situation for the trygon is that he gets to re-roll to wound.

That's the problem Nates the toxin sac entrie just says to look at the rule in the BRB and the way the BRB words it it pretty much says a poison wont wound on anything worst then a 4+.

Your basicly saying what the othe guy was arguing and I personally think he's wrong.

Well, look at it this way then. The Rule book entry says that poisoned weapons Do Not rely on normal comparison of Strength and Toughness. If you're using a poisoned weapon that says 4+, you do not wound on any other number, despite the difference between the strength of your model and the toughness on thiers.

The upshot, as I said, is that you get to re-roll your wounds when the strength is high enough. Pretty much what this means is that you don't want toxin sacs on your trygon unless you plan on fighting other Monstrous Creatures.

Take note that other poisoned weapons could potentially wound on lower numbers, like Old Zogwort's 2+. The Nid one only wounds on 4+, though.(in the toxin sac entry, its got a big 4+ in brackets)

Sorry that it might not be what you want to hear, but thems the rules. Nowhere in the codex or the rulebook does it say that your poisoned weapons get to wound on any number other than what is specified, and it says pretty clearly that you do not wound on normal Str-Tough comparison.

[Orbital]

Yep. If you're hitting with a poisoned weapon, you always wound on a certain number (4+ unless otherwise specified), no matter what your strength is or your opponent's toughness is.

Sometimes this makes things better, sometimes worse.

[Berserker]

Well, look at it this way then. The Rule book entry says that poisoned weapons Do Not rely on normal comparison of Strength and Toughness. If you're using a poisoned weapon that says 4+, you do not wound on any other number, despite the difference between the strength of your model and the toughness on thiers.

Nates your not reading my post properly so I'll repeat again the Tyranid codex gives NO VALUE AT ALL it just says look at the rule in the BRB and the rule book says 2+, 3+ or 4+ which one am I suppose to take here?


The following part is a word for word extract from the BRB which is on page 42.
Poison weapons range from blades coated in venom to hypodermic claws. They do not rely on a comparison of strength and toughness to wound - they always wound on a fixed number, generally shown in brackets. In most cast it is a 4+. Some venoms are so lethal that the merest drop can kill - these wounds on a 3+, or even 2+ ( as described in the approproate codex).

The rest is about re-roll to wound so I wont bother typing that part as its not relevant.

So according to the rule it could be either 4 3 or 2 but no specific's from the codex or the BRB itself so what am I suppose to do here pick a number out of a hat?

I know its not as bad as previous BRB but little inconsistencies like that drive me nuts.


EDIT: Orbital post was not here when I posted my reply but its not so much as to that specific player but more into the rule now cause the more i seem to dig the more it looks confusing and that frustrates me.

[Orbital]

Nates your not reading my post properly so I'll repeat again the Tyranid codex gives NO VALUE AT ALL it just says look at the rule in the BRB and the rule book says 2+, 3+ or 4+ which one am I suppose to take here?

I would say 4+.

Poison weapons range from blades coated in venom to hypodermic claws. They do not rely on a comparison of strength and toughness to wound - they always wound on a fixed number, generally shown in brackets. In most cast it is a 4+. Some venoms are so lethal that the merest drop can kill - these wounds on a 3+, or even 2+ ( as described in the approproate codex).

"Generally" means most of the time, not all of the time. If the book said "Which must always be shown in brackets", that'd be different.

It looks like it's 4+ unless otherwise stated. It's not very well written in the rulebook, but it's still clear.

[natesnation]

I'm looking at the Nid codex. It says, exactly,
"If a Tyranid has the toxin sacs biomorph all of its close combat attacks become Poisoned(4+) as detailed in the Rule Book"

The 4+ in brackets is all it needs to say. The rule and mechanics of poisoning is described pretty well in the Rule book.

It Does say 4+, so there is no need for you to draw numbers from a hat.

[Berserker]

I'm looking at the Nid codex. It says, exactly,
"If a Tyranid has the toxin sacs biomorph all of its close combat attacks become Poisoned(4+) as detailed in the Rule Book"

The 4+ in brackets is all it needs to say. The rule and mechanics of poisoning is described pretty well in the Rule book.

It Does say 4+, so there is no need for you to draw numbers from a hat.

Really!?

Ok if this is true this will seriously put my knowledge of the nid codex into question.

I'll check it out when I get home tonight.

[LUTNIT]

As nate quoted:

If a Tyranid has the toxin sacs biomorph all of its close combat attacks become Poisoned (4+), as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

So we know its a 4+ for sure.

[Poisoned attacks] do not rely on a comparison of Strength and Toughness to wound - they ALWAYS wound on a FIXED NUMBER...

(Emphasis mine)

That makes it pretty clear to me. A fixed number is a single number, not a range of numbers, and always means always.

I've never seen poisoned weapons that didn't specify a value before since that rule has been around since 3rd in pretty much the same function. The IG codex (5th ed release) has Sly Marbo's attacks listed as "poisoned (2+)." Blood Angels and Space Wolves have no poisoned weapons and they are the other two 5th ed codex's I have access to.