NERF US TD lists

[CA$H]

Worth a read:

http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=126&aff=6&aft=542372&afv=topic

[Joyous_Oblivion]

Wonder if he ever played against the new list or is just another sky is falling person. Makes me feel like s--t about making my TD list though...US TDs have been useless for 6 years and now they have decent rules and immediately everyone hates them.

At least a lot of the commenters see sense. This list really only rocks German medium lists which previously owned the crap out of US lists. Nice to finally have an answer to StuG spam.

[CA$H]

One guy, Web_Griffin or whatever has a long history of game knowledge, and Nationals level play. The issue doesn't seem to be based solely on the new book, but on V3 rules changes + the new book.

he play tested 10 games, and lists the issues on page 2.

Your comment seems to suggest you didn't read the thread yet.......

[Diragi]

Nice to finally have an answer to StuG spam.

Shermans with stabs shooting into side armour 3?

[Joyous_Oblivion]

I'm trying to get through it on my phone. Likely read the rest when I'm home. Really don't like the sky is falling type players though. Same thing happens every book for GW too.

[Diragi]

[reposting here so you can read it in tapatalk]

[Warning - long post]
Ok - it was only time for this discussion to happen...

IMO, the issue with the TD rules really come to bear when you have multiple platoons of TDs. If you are running a Tank Company with a TD platoon in support, you just don't get the same synergy around the benefit of the rules.

So a little background from me:

When V3 hit the stands, I immediately jumped on the TFA bandwagon. It took some chats with friends and test games with a good friend to make me appreciate the fact that TFA is the single biggest beneficiary of V3 - hands down. I am guessing cornishkeebler will post his thoughts - having played at least 6 warmup games with me for LW Nats. Oh yes, I am the guy that attended his first LW Nats, brought TFA and won Best Ami - thanks to Wilcox winning it all.

Like the "EW list that shall not be mentioned", the issue boils down to more than just one area. I believe the TD lists have three areas: the combination of the special rules / V3 rules, the increase in technology in LW and the point structure that needs adjustments.

Combination of Rules:
1) TD Special rules
1a) The splitting of Security Section from the TDs. Ok, so the Sec Section is a "free" platoon. It dies, so what? Yes, if you cannot pop the ambush then the TD platoon is destroyed. But in every game I played with TFA, I never lost a TD platoon by failure to pop the ambush. I can assure you that cornishkeebler did everything he could. He came really close once, but the TDs popped and bye bye enemy.
1b) You can pop the ambush even after moving the Sec Section at the double. I have yet to do this for one simple reason - I was afraid my opponent would throw their dice at me.
1c) The entire platoon is recon. Let this sink in for a second. Remember that recon themselves cannot move to within a certain range and be in LoS. This is to prevent first turn GtG getting lifted by a recon platoon. But what about the TDs themselves? I move my Sec Section in the recon move to the edge of the recon move limit. Turn 1, I pop my TDs and remember that the ambush popping rules are different - I can be outside of 4" if concealed. So my TDs pop under 16" in Turn 1. Because I have multiple TD platoons, I can use 1,2,3,4 however many TDs I want to dedicate to... lifting GtG in Turn 1. I just doubled my chances for hits. Yes, it cost me shots from the TDs, but other units can join in including smoke rounds.
1d) TDs no longer have to disengage. This is huge. With return fire, remember that chances are the TDs are concealed. Trained TDs? You still need 4+ to hit me, followed by a FP roll. See Riha's Mathemagician posts to run those numbers... The TDs will live more often than being obliterated. Next turn is a different story.

V3 rules / LW Arsenal:
1) Wheeled movement. The Sec Sections just got faster.
2) Recon jeep save. Now my Sec Section in BG&G gets a 3+ save against any hit?? What?? That means 2/3 of the hits registered to the Sec Section will "fail."
3) Increase in AT for US TDs. Now I get a 13 for Hellcats and Wolverines, Jacksons at a 14. Panthers went from being a unit to make me wake up in a cold sweat to "meh." The sheer volume of shots down range is too much.
4) Direct fire smoke for the US. This is the icing - if I have Shermans that can smoke, wait for the TDs to do their thing, then direct fire smoke. I get to choose the unit that is smoked. Add Pool in TFA and umph...

And those are just the beginning. With BG&G, Patton is an option. TFA is the only list from Turning Tide that Americans will still play. ARP and Tank Company will come out of BG&G. TD Company in BG&G is crazy good, but you will pay for it.

Increase Tech:
So in late '44, the Allies in the West finally get some stuff that can kill German armor. The LW variant Shermans, better AP rounds, etc. So this needs to be and should be reflected in the game. So we see that in BG&G. One thought that I personally have is that BF could have done something ground-breaking and create a 4th era - Late, Late War or something. Crazy idea, but it would stop the tech issue from Normandy to Bulge to Rhine Crossing.

Point Structure:
So the real issue here are points. I will not thread jack and get into EW. But in LW, when you combine the rules, the special rules for TDs, the LW arsenal changes, tech changes, etc. you can see that points are a bit out of whack. 410 gets you Vet TD Hellcats. 102.5 points per tank. Yes, the stats are 2-0-0, RoF 2, AT 13, FP 3+. But remember the points include the Security Section and the ability to pop that ambush under 16". CV Panther (i believe out of Grey Wolf) is 186 points. My TD platoon stands a good chance of either detroying or running the Panther platoon - before the Panther can even shoot at the actual TD.

So, my TDs get what I call a "mobile spawning point", I can move the Sec Section with near impunity, pop my 102.5 pt. "tank" and cause serious, serious damage to a 186 point tank. Only then can the 186 return fire.

Does this need a "nerf"? I will let others determine that because I am biased. I do believe that a single TD support platoon does have some nice benefits. It is when you add the second, third and fourth TD platoon that it becomes a bit crazy.

As for the antidote? Sure, there is one. But if you build a list to be Anti-TFA or Anti-TD Co, you open yourself up to issues with many, many other lists.

Sorry for the long post, but in my opinion the issue is more than just TD rules themselves - it is the combination of several rules and the ability to field multiple platoons.

[Joyous_Oblivion]

Ok I got through the whole thing. My opinion hasn't changed and even WBGriffin seems to soften his tone in his latest post.

Yes those TDs are deadly, no doubt, though arguably worse in TFA with every single thing being recce. Now I have a dilemma.

When I show up to a game/tourney with my US TDs or TFA am I now a 'Grey Knight' player? Am I no longer welcome with my list? I've spent years now scared to death of Pak 40s, StuGs, Panthers, Pz IVs, Tigers...etc.

Now I can effectively deal with them, and I'm looked down upon? Run an infantry co. and see how useless those TDs are against blobs of infantry with hordes of guns and arty behind him.

So do I have to ask permission to run my forthcoming army? Am I persona non-grata now?

I really think people need to wait and see how things turn out, 1 guy on the Internet who played 10 games shouldn't be the be all and end all of things.

If you'll excuse me I have 2 more hellcats to assemble and a platoon of Jacksons to order

Aww crap I also need a billion of those little damned Armoured car/jeeps now too

[Diragi]

I've spent years now scared to death of Pak 40s, StuGs, Panthers, Pz IVs, Tigers...etc.

You know... there's a lot of allied stuff that german players are scared to death of as well!

[Mike_a]

I wouldn't worry about it to much until you play some game with it yourself. Having so many ambushes with that high AT does sound pretty good, but seems like it would be hard to defend with that type of a list.

But I don't think ever lost a game of FoW where I felt it was because of the lists involved and there was nothing I could do. Usually it is becaue I did something stupid, like moving all my matildas at the double and having them all break down and what not.


Thanks;
Mike

[CA$H]

I'm not worried- just makes for interesting discussion.

HOWEVER,

TDA has now placed #1 and #3 at a national event - due to the V3 rule improvements and "alpha strike" capability. That is where people are concerned I believe - not casual play, but tournament play.