1500 Points Dark Eldar - Option 1 for Cap-It-All Cup

[natesnation]

that raider pivot seems flat-out illegal. The rules aren't written well enough to encompass this sort of prattle, but what the heck guys?
this defines win at all costs.

[LUTNIT]

this defines win at all costs.

It's for a tournament. If you don't like it, don't play in tournaments.

I have totally different mindsets for playing friendly/pickup games and playing in a tournament with cash prizes. In a friendly game I would roll my eyes at this, in a tournament I would expect it.

I have no doubt in my mind that this is used unintentionally in every game that involves a vehicle turning. You may not do it on purpose and you may not even think about it but if you have played 40k you have used vehicle rotation to gain advantage over your opponent. This is just distilling it down and using it to maximum effect. Simply by turning a vindicator to fire its demolisher cannon at something that is on its flank is giving you an inch or so of extra range vs. not turning (which means you couldn't actually fire at that target.) The turret on a Leman Russ is forward a bit from centre of the hull so turning the entire vehicle instead of just the turret gives you around 1/2" of extra range. A land raider can deploy out it's side but if it turns to face what its cargo is assaulting you gain a little less than 1" to your assault range and it looks better when it's facing what it's attacking. This is a fact of every vehicle (other than walkers I guess) in 40k that I can think of but it just isn't used intentionally or at least isn't said out loud to be used intentionally to gain advantage.

The design of the DE raiders just means it's a larger advantage than with boxier vehicles. As Crab said it is unavoidable unless every vehicle was a sphere.

It's just like using infiltrating squads to totally block the enemy board edge so anything that comes in from reserve that can't fly or tank shock dies automatically. It's a huge dick move in a friendly game and may make me pack up and leave but in a competitive tournament isn't against any rules.

[Crablezworth]

that raider pivot seems flat-out illegal. The rules aren't written well enough to encompass this sort of prattle, but what the heck guys?
this defines win at all costs.

I would be illegal if the pivot say took part of the model off the board or into impassable but otherwise it's sadly legal. It's also not a big deal, raiders aren't exactly hard to destroy.

[An00bis]

also, since raiders cant infiltrate (I hope..?) just make sure you dont deploy right on your starting line.

[Desc440]

also, since raiders cant infiltrate (I hope..?) just make sure you dont deploy right on your starting line.

Precisely.

[Chimera]

This is your basic RAW/RAI argument.

As you move the models in a unit, they can turn to face any direction, without affecting the distance they are able to cover...." (emphasis added).

The vehicle rules say pivoting doesn't reduce movement distance but it also doesn't say that it increases movement distance. I say: If you're just pivoting, whatever; but, if you're going to move you should measure from the hull before you pivot. It's like me starting my trygons sideways to get another 2" of turn 1 movement.

So maybe I should stick with my mostly-painted Blood Angels and just touch them up this time around - I'd probably require way too much new stuff to optimize the DE list for the CiA Cup. My two Tactical, two Assault list should come in handy then.

Thanks for all the constructive criticism, guys! Watch for a Blood Angels list soon!

Well, now I feel bad for dissuading you!

[natesnation]

this defines win at all costs.

It's for a tournament. If you don't like it, don't play in tournaments.

I have totally different mindsets for playing friendly/pickup games and playing in a tournament with cash prizes. In a friendly game I would roll my eyes at this, in a tournament I would expect it.

I have no doubt in my mind that this is used unintentionally in every game that involves a vehicle turning. You may not do it on purpose and you may not even think about it but if you have played 40k you have used vehicle rotation to gain advantage over your opponent. This is just distilling it down and using it to maximum effect. Simply by turning a vindicator to fire its demolisher cannon at something that is on its flank is giving you an inch or so of extra range vs. not turning (which means you couldn't actually fire at that target.) The turret on a Leman Russ is forward a bit from centre of the hull so turning the entire vehicle instead of just the turret gives you around 1/2" of extra range. A land raider can deploy out it's side but if it turns to face what its cargo is assaulting you gain a little less than 1" to your assault range and it looks better when it's facing what it's attacking. This is a fact of every vehicle (other than walkers I guess) in 40k that I can think of but it just isn't used intentionally or at least isn't said out loud to be used intentionally to gain advantage.

The design of the DE raiders just means it's a larger advantage than with boxier vehicles. As Crab said it is unavoidable unless every vehicle was a sphere.

It's just like using infiltrating squads to totally block the enemy board edge so anything that comes in from reserve that can't fly or tank shock dies automatically. It's a huge dick move in a friendly game and may make me pack up and leave but in a competitive tournament isn't against any rules.

Its a game. Games have cheaters, rule benders, rules lawyers, ect. This sort of crap reflects badly on the people playing the game. its like the guys in soccer who will jump on the ground crying if somebody grazes past them. sure, they're in it to win it, but its still a game. I'd rather that be a fair competition than ekeing out any questionable advantage to stay ahead.

thank you Chimera for the quote from the rulebook. I understand better what people are getting at.

and now, I leave, and will derail this thread no further.

[DavidJRawes]

this defines win at all costs.

It's for a tournament. If you don't like it, don't play in tournaments.

If you don't like people using any and all advantages, even those which blatantly disregard the purpose and spirit of the rules, don't play in tournaments? Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I hadn't thought Ottawa tournaments had changed that much in the couple of years since I've been to one.

Anyway, this isn't the purpose of this thread, sorry for interrupting.

[Crablezworth]

I'm gonna make a thread for this, sorry jordan.


http://www.gamesummit.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10204

[Steel Paladin]

I'm gonna make a thread for this, sorry jordan.


http://www.gamesummit.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10204

No problem, dude. You took the right action eventually.

I'm going to lock this thread as a courtesy and direct all of you who wish to continue discussing the dastardly pivot maneuver to Crabz's new thread.