Ork Mek KFF save for vehicles

[Gahris]

So indefinately its a 5+ that is confered to the vehicle. Simply read the rules under obscuring in the BRB. pg 62 of the mini rulebook. In brackets it states along the lines of: that when obscured you get the cover save of the thing obscuring you.

So if its a KFF, a KFF gives a 5+.

Thats the last ill say on this topic, its crystal clear.

[Orbital]

So indefinately its a 5+ that is confered to the vehicle. Simply read the rules under obscuring in the BRB. pg 62 of the mini rulebook. In brackets it states along the lines of: that when obscured you get the cover save of the thing obscuring you.

So if its a KFF, a KFF gives a 5+.

Thats the last ill say on this topic, its crystal clear.

That works for me. I wasn't aware of it. Now I am. Cheers!

[AngryCanadian]

Wow you found it, thats quite the interpretation

Thats donesnt change anything, that is the dis-agreement itself, because you see it that way doesn't make it true
anymore than the kid at my LGS who said his Landraider has AV16 because he gave it the extra armour upgrade

the ork dex says units get a 5+, vehicles are counted as obscured

it does not say that vehicles have a 5+

the BRB says if an item gives the vehicle a cover save its a 4+, unless specified

it is not specified for vehicles as they are mentioned individually

it does not say vehicles get a 5+ hence the dis-agreement, if it did we wouldn't have had this conversation in the first place


Why would GW let ppl play 4+, at thier tourny's and not say thats wrong its a five 5+, im sure the topic has come up there

99% of ppl play it as 4+, just because you say its a 5+ doesn't mean anything

Rather than us have this long debate we could just read others make all the same points and come to the same

DAKKADAKKA (A forum with members worldwide)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/po ... ge#1159016

ON Heresy
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/sho ... orce+field

On the WAAAGH- the best site for Ork players they say its 4+
(i dont feel like looking for it)

And if seen countless email from GW to individuals having this arguement all saying 4+
(but i know those will be dis-counted the same as before)

I could go on but its all the same no-on really knows and we are waiting on GW to sort it out

Conclusion,
IT DOESN' T CLEARLY STATE either

I feel Phil Kelly has the best idea of what it is(he wrote it) so I feel his interpretation should be used not some guy near Ottawa( no offence)

someone mentioned a kan list- its more effective with KFF's

I would like to know how this will be ruled at the next GS

Ask the Other tourny organizers how they rule on it

[Orbital]

Wow. You sure picked your name well.

[AngryCanadian]

lol, thats over the price difference here and in the states

But please dont get me started

[Orbital]

lol, thats over the price difference here and in the states

But please dont get me started

All the same... try not to be sarcastic or condescending on the forum. Angry is fine. Mean is not. Sallieman is a well-known and thoughtful community member who makes a valid point. Even if you disagree, please give other people's comments due respect.

[Orbital]

I would like to know how this will be ruled at the next GS

Ask the Other tourny organizers how they rule on it

When you're making a rules-based decision for a tournament, you don't start by asking other tourney organizers, going to White Dwarf, reading battle reports, asking on forums or (believe it or not) even listening to the rules designer. You start by going to the relevant rulebooks. If the rulebooks do not cover the appropriate matter adequately, only then do you go to other sources to seek out precedent. Unless I see something I'm not expecting, I will rule it as a 5+ save because to the best of my knowledge at the moment that seems to be the correct ruling.

Incidentally, Phil Kelly has been known to contradict himself pretty dramatically where his own rules are concerned. He's not a reliable source from which to glean important rulings except where he's writing a FAQ or a codex.

[AngryCanadian]

Yeah those were 2 separate thoughts, sorry if it seemed otherwise, I wasn't asking you to ask others to base your decision

Also i did not mean to be condescending, sarcastic yes

You say first to look at the rules- Nothing is clear
then you say to look at past precedence- its clearly a 4+

then how can you say it will be a 5+

honestly what makes you think you can balance the game anymore so them GW, you take idea's influenced from those around you and make your decision, same as everyone else, the fact that Sallieman said so and has completely made the decision for you is proof in this matter, and seems completely ignorant to me

I still believe the general opinion of the world, not the exception to the rule

Anyway thats too bad, I was thinking of entering the Tourny next year, but i feel the Orks have been strong armed out of a competitive list

I've heard of this happening before, going as far as banning Trukks, its a shame that its happening in my corner of the world

maybe I'll look into Nob bikerz, unless they've been ruled out cause there to good as well

[Orbital]

You're stepping on some risky ground, AC and crossing the line I just asked you not to cross. Let me address a few comments, here.

1. If you actually read my comments you'll see that I'm not just making a decision because Sallieman said it. He pointed out something that does, in fact, clarify the situation: "If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it make take a cover save against it exactly like a non-vehicle model would do against a wound (for example, a save of 5+ for a hedge, 4+ for a building, 3+ for a fortification, and so on)." it goes on to say: "If a special rule or piece of wargear confers to a vehcile the ability of being obscured even if in the open, this is a 4+ cover save, unless specified otherwise in the codex" (Emphasis mine). That pretty much clears up the confusion about the KFF.
2. At first I said "nothing is clear", and then Sallieman showed me that yes, there is clarification. And he did so by referring to the rulebook. You have referred to tournaments and battle reports, but there historically have been several errors in both of those... and the rulebook still trumps them regardless.
3. All that stuff about being "influenced by those around me" is out of line. Don't forget that you don't know me and cannot guess my motives or reasoning, not to mention that I've clearly supported my stand with rules-based logic.
4. Unless you can actually show me data (and by that I don't mean links to Dakka Dakka), I don't believe you represent the "opinion of the world". I'd appreciate it if you spent more time citing rules than lecturing on who's supposed to know them best.

On this forum, we have a philosophy: If you disagree with someone, attack the idea, not the person. We're all friends here and you're invited to be as well, but I'm not going to allow you to speak sarcastically and condescendingly to others with impunity. It's not necessary or appropriate... even if you're in the right.

Yeah those were 2 separate thoughts, sorry if it seemed otherwise, I wasn't asking you to ask others to base your decision

Also i did not mean to be condescending, sarcastic yes

You say first to look at the rules- Nothing is clear
then you say to look at past precedence- its clearly a 4+

then how can you say it will be a 5+

honestly what makes you think you can balance the game anymore so them GW, you take idea's influenced from those around you and make your decision, same as everyone else, the fact that Sallieman said so and has completely made the decision for you is proof in this matter, and seems completely ignorant to me

I still believe the general opinion of the world, not the exception to the rule

Anyway thats too bad, I was thinking of entering the Tourny next year, but i feel the Orks have been strong armed out of a competitive list

I've heard of this happening before, going as far as banning Trukks, its a shame that its happening in my corner of the world

maybe I'll look into Nob bikerz, unless they've been ruled out cause there to good as well

[Sallieman]

@AngryCanadian

To say their is no viable ork list without ghaz or a kff that is -1 save to what your use to, I think your Crazy!

Somethimes its not the list that wins the tournament, Ive won tournaments, got extremely close to winning tournaments, which 80% of people would say that list is not gonna win a tournament,

Why would you take swooping hawks?
Why would you take a 300pts squad of vypers?
ect... ect...

And saying to orbital that you aint gonna go to GS beacause of the ruling he has demonstrated on the KFF, I really feel sry for you that you have to threaten that, but at the end of the day its your loss.